I just want to stir up some discussion on the topic.

Here is the Story.

Please be respectful and stick to the forum guidelines.

What do you think of this on both the Proposition itself and the current activities underway?

I personally believe that there will be a constant battle between gay rights and anti-gay rights activists. There will be a victory allowing same sex couples to marry, but then it will overturned within the year.

so it goes.




what i would actually like to do is go to one of these "protests" and ask the people that are against same-sex marriage and gay rights the reasons that they don't agree with it.

Well, gay marriage is allowed for quite some time now in the Netherlands (since 2001 it is legal) and homosexuality is accepted for a lot longer, so I don't see anything wrong with it.
What prix said is a good idea, walk amongst the opposition and ask why they oppose.

Most people find this stems from religious beliefs. They find that some proclaiming to be "Christian Homosexuals" are the ultimate sin and blasphemy. Our societal views and taboos that have been ingrained in us since our youth also drive many people.

Okay, but what about the financial reasons for and against gay marriage or the middle ground of civil union?

I know where you guys stand, but why? And, where do you see this going in the next few months and years?

Hmm, financially and politically, there shouldn't be any issues with it. It would drive up revenue, which I think is a good thing. Think about the registration fees, and things of that nature that come with marriage. Plus, the ceremony, catering, ect. I think politically, this shouldn't have any bearing either, unless some democrats who make laws are flirting with each other, but then again, that happens with male and female congresspeople too, so there shouldn't be an issue. Honestly, i think it is too many people are just ignorant that it is religion and only outdated views on what is "good and right" that define our prejduces. (sp)

As for its future, as long as people are closedminded, there will be hell.

Well I was referring to the Supreme Court of California making a ruling.

If this was voted on, why did it go to court? What does this say about Democracy?

The Courts did end up ruling to uphold the vote on Proposition 8 and honoring marriages done prior to the vote. Do you believe it fair to have another vote on it this year? How long should there be between votes on topics such as this? Should there be a time limit?

Four months seems a reasonable time frame, initiated by a 3 strikes rule. If a passed Prop goes to court 3 times, and gets shot down three times (so one year), then it is law for 5 years. I know that seems arbitrary, but the Homosexual population can not be ignored. So, in all fairness, let the uproar calm down, and try again.

1 it failed
2 i lawled when i say the demographics of prop 8 like theres a surge of people by socal beachs and a little in nor cal around san fran everywhere else was a no

I'm sorry. Your post made no sense. Can you please explain what you meant a bit more?

Maybe this is just my own gay bias speaking here, but I don't think the issue of gay marriage is not one of democracy. It's a civil rights issue. There is something inherently wrong about putting a minority's rights up to a majority vote. Of course the minority will lose almost every time. To make an analogy; what if we had put the rights of blacks up to popular vote? Even if blacks had the right to vote on the same issue, it would fail because of the majority bias toward 'tradition'.

QFT. The ironic thing is, I'm in government class, and the first day the teacher says, if you take away any lesson from this class, it is that the MAJORITY must protect the RIGHTS of the MINORITY! But it never happens fluidly. Look at African Americans and Women. Look how long they had to fight for it, and how far it went!

Okay this may be true, BUT what fundamental rights are they losing? They have every right upheld by any US citizen. There isn't a right to be married and a right to share medical benefits...so, why is this an issue? They have every right to vote, own land, go into public without segregation or persecution. Is the concept of marriage a right granted by the United States of America, or is it an added pleasure?

Yes, I'd say that marriage is a fundamental right. If I fall in love with someone then should it really matter what their gender is? By denying gay marriages, the government is basically telling me that our relationships and feelings are invalid. Nobody has a right to tell me who I can and can't fall in love with. If it's between two consenting adults, then it shouldn't be an issue. As for the ability to go out in public without persecution... yeah, that explains why I was told, "Get the fuck out of this town you fucking faggot!" a few days ago at a protest.

They aren't telling you who you can love. Just who you can legally be married to. Why does being married affect your happiness? There are lots of couples through out the world that just live together and never get married. My mother and her boy friend have been together for 17 years and have no plans of getting married.

I don't see why you would need to be married in order to feel validated. Without marriage you can never be happy and accept your partner for anything more than a friend?

I think, but then again, it's just my thought, that the point is not so much that not being married doesn't enable you to see one as more than a friend. I think the problem is more like: from a traditional point of view, marriage is seen as the recognition that two people belong together and that there is something special between them. I can understand that homosexual people feel insulted/frustrated that they for some reason are not allowed to have this same special thing/recognition.
I do however understand the point that you should be able to view somebody as your lifetime partner without marriage.

But, from a traditional standpoint this isn't traditional.

Why do you need the recognition of strangers to your marriage?

because the acceptance of your marriage is one of the things that can make you feel like you are considered 'normal' (if there is such a thing as normal).
Anyways, I'm not homosexual (nor married for that fact), so I'm just saying what I think could be reasons.

I think you're definitely onto something Yaaqob. From a purely technical standpoint the recognition seems to be simply a matter of semantics. Homosexuals have for years been able to enter into domestic partnership agreements with each other that give them all the same financial and tax benefits that married couples receives. On the other hand a semantic issue is a huge issues because language defines meaning which in turn defines rights (so it is very much a civil rights issue).

Personally I am opposed to Prop 8 simply on the basis that it is a modification of the state constitution to delineate an issue that the government has no business regulating or monitoring in the first place.

I'm a Libertarian so to me it's pretty obvious that the concept of "marriage" is a personal issue and people should not expect anything from the government when they get married nor should they let the government tell them whether or not they can be married.

Take the government (federal and state) out of the process entirely and we wouldn't even be talking about this today. The only reason we see so much controversy over this is because gays incorrectly believe that they need the governments permission to marry and supporters of prop 8 incorrectly believe that they can use the government to block social change.

Additionally, the concept that this is a religion vs. gays debate is so far from true it's almost comical. The campaign in support of Prop 8 was funded by the Mormon church to target the apathetic middle ground. The amount of money they poured into the cause absolutely dwarves the anti-8 movement who by the way was counting more on common sense than campaigning. This is much more a campaign strategy/money issue than it is a religious issue. Prop 8 was swung on the votes of NONE-religious voters because religious voters and gay rights voters were going to vote one way or another no matter how much you campaigned at them. It's the people who were either not going to vote or didn't really have an opinion that changed the landscape.

Bryce

The problem is not necessarily my happiness. Marriage is more than just the state of a relationship, it is considered a legal status. Here are just a few of the legal benefits of marriage:

-The ability to file joint tax returns.
-Hospital visitation.
-Joint parental rights of children.
-"Next-of-kin" status.
-Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children.
-Joint insurance plans.
-Medicare.
-Domestic violence protection orders.

...these are just 8 of the 1,409 benefits of marriage reported by the General Accounting office in 1997. Here's a PDF of the full list, it starts on page 17. Some of these are available in a civil union, but not all. All we want is equality.