ok so in school my AP teachers like to do debates about different things and one thing that the students started after we read someones paper about abortion was a debate about it...now since im still in high school people in my grade r still immature and are very closed-minded...they were unable to understand that there idea isnt the only option so i figured id would bring it up here since most of u all are adults...how do u feel aobut abortion? are u pro-choice or pro-life

-Points of the debate:pro life-
"that kid did nothing wrong so how can you take his life for something thats not his fault"
"what if that kid grows up to the next MLK"

-Points of the debate: Pro Choice-
"what if its an accedental pregnancy? the mother should get a choice in what happens"
"what if the parents cant afford to get the baby all its need and he is deprived of basic things like food and dipers"

Personaly I am pro choice because I believe that it should be up to the mother if she wants to have the child or not and if she id mature enough to rais a kid depending on the age

Well, I'm always a big fan of discussions. But, I'm going to remind everyone to try and stick to the guidelines laid out and be mature and open minded.

I am personally Pro-Life.

Your argument that maybe the mother isn't mature enough or capable to raise a child holds little sway with me. There are lots of people out there that can not have children who would be happy to take the child and raise it as their own. Even still, adoption is always a better option just like life is always better than death.

I'd rather this thread be driven by discussion so I'm just going to provide my stances as we go rather than throw them all out there right away.

Well this is a very iffy subject for me because I view every instance differently.

In some stance I am Pro-life but in others I am Pro-choice.

For the instance when I am pro-life is when any old everyday person gets pregnant and they just flat out dont want to have it because it will affect they way they are looked at because they are SOOOO HOT >_>. That's is when I find it wrong to have an abortion for personal gain.

The instances when I am pro-choice is when the mother had no say in the matter what so ever like in the case of rape. The mother had no say in the matter and a pregnancy is byproduct of so. The mother never wanted to have the kid so I find it to be acceptable in this case for an abortion.

It just depends on the context of the pregnancy for me.

I could use some entertainment - so why not join this? (IMG:http://www.glowsticking.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sm_biggrin.gif)



Assumption 1 is that you assume a fetus is equivalent to a "kid" and that he has a "life". You need to justify exactly why a fetus has the same moral stature as a normal-functioning member of society. The cutoff for when a fetus is considered to be a "human" is always a fuzzy line (when the brain starts firing neurotic signals or when the heart beats?) and you must make that cut somewhere and back it up well. Otherwise, this argument crumbles quickly - all I need to say is "that's not a kid".

Assumption 2 is a wash. "What if" arguments like these are internecine and ultimately drop out of a debate without leaving any impact. All I need to say is "What if that kid grows up to the next Hitler?" Then you're stuck weighing the probabilities of whether or not a kid will grow up to be a constructive or harmful member of society. Then you're stuck trying to extrapolate where this fetus will be in another 30 years, which is gross speculation at the very least. Don't go there, man.

Just as a warning - for a debate to have meaningful dialogue, you need an axiom or some end criterion to evaluate which side of the debate is doing better. All these arguments are apples to oranges and unless you say something like "the deciding factor will be the sweetness level of the fruit" or "the weight of the fruit", who is to say apples are better than oranges? So essentially, what I am saying for this is: what are you ultimately trying to achieve? Is it justice? If so, what kind? Are you going for utilitarianism? If so, are you going along the lines of negative or positive utilitarianism? What about Rawlsian justice? Without any criterion in mind, we'd just be saying to each other "The mother's right trump the fetus's" and "No, the fetus's rights precede the mother's right to choose" and no one can decide which statement is more valid.

well...
im personally pro-life
everyone deserves a chance at life and me being catholic God puts everyone on this earth for a reason and its his choice for when they come and go
and in most cases, aborted babies aren't because of rape
they usually consist of teens who have sex and just end up getting pregnant "accidentally"
just think about it, what hurts more? aborting a child or keeping it with struggles on the way?
i couldnt live on knowing the fact i didnt give my baby that one chance in life and i just took it away from him/her
as yaaqob said, adoption is better than death
life is a very valuable thing and everyone has their natural rights (LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness)
thats all i have to say for now

i am pro-abortion. there are too many people in the world as it is. adopt adopt adopt.

I'm honestly both Pro-life and Pro-choice, like FEAR.

I also really liked LastSingularity's approach to those assumptions, nicely evaluated.

Pro-Life, even in extreme cases where someone is raped. I feel that EVERY child deserves to live, regardless of what stage of life it is in, if the mother is scarred emotionally from it i can understand that they would want to get an abortion but why not give the baby up for adoption? Give it a chance at life, even if you can't provide for it.

ya those "points" were by my stupid classmates who dont think on a high enough level for AP kids lol and ya my responce to the "what if" one was the Hitler thing right away and they shut up lol...those points were just kind of examples on how imature the actual debate was not what we have to talk about

and this isnt really a bedate...at least i didnt entend on it to be lol i just wanted ot know what everyone thought about it and hear their opinions and contrast them to mine (which my classmates are incappable of btw lol) its not about whos point is better or anything...this is the serious thoughts area and i jsut wanted to know who you all think

and yes please be mature about this especialy since its not a true "debate"...more like how the Spartens and Greeks "shared knbowledge" just...without the nakedness and the bed lol (IMG:http://www.glowsticking.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

lol thats what we GSC's will b known for...sharing opinions lol (IMG:http://www.glowsticking.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/D.gif)

It is important to understand that not everyone is capable of reasoning at an AP/college level (and even fewer at a PhD level). At times, this type of thinking can be learned through practice and exposure. Other times, it is not. In the end, "stupidity" is a relative term - where you can use it describe your classmates, someone else may be inclined to use it against you. That is why I encourage you to teach and to help your classmates instead of looking down upon them. Be the bigger man properly.

Since you claim that you are pro-choice, I'd like to ask if that's unconditional or not. Does that mean that extremely late into the pregnancy, so late that the fetus could easily survive outside of the womb, abortion is still a legitimate solution? Where does the right to life trump the mother's right to choose? What about baleful externalities to your proposal, such as precedence of promoting irresponsibility and its resulting sociopolitical ramifications?

Well after the book i was reading based on DMT,
the pineal gland starts producing DMT after 49 days. This is also when you can tell if its a boy or girl.

SO, with that, since i believe the theory that DMT is the i guess 'gateway' to consciousness.
i believe abortion is completely fine up until 49 days. which i think is the length of the first trimester?
i dunno basically my view is first trimester, doesnt matter.
after that i dunno i dont think it should be done.


AS WELL i believe that it also depends on age. Well not so much matters as that age cant. but i feel if your like 23+ you should keep it. reason being by that age you should be mature enough and smart enough not to get pregnant that easily. and if you do you should keep it. only younger girls should get them since well. they were stupid, immature and are no where close to being ready to raise a kid. YES this may make it where they dont learn. but really should they ruin their lives like that when they are offered a choice?

And as well, i wont lie, i really dont see a problem with killing an unborn baby. way i see it...if its not born its not a life. i know there is a huge argument about this. But ok actually let me put it better. IF it cannot survive outside the womb without machines. its not a life. basically if it cant survive on its own its not a living being yet.

so im pro choice i guess

49 days does not equal a trimester. A trimester equals 3 months. Women are pregnant for approx. 9 months. Geez...

Anyway...I am pro-choice. However, I don't disagree with anyone who is pro-life. Especially after reading Merlin's response.

thats a tough topic.

i lean more towards pro life, but i still support abortion.

if the mother will be unable to care for the child, then that leaves two options: put the child up for adoption or have an abortion

if options have been exhausted for adoption and there still is no one, then abortion would be the best choice.

this came up in november when our school had a mock presidential debate. to say the very least, supporters of mccain (and a pro-life agenda i assume) described partial birth abortions in a very detailed manner. scare tatics lol

idk, its really up in the air. abortions seem to be a perfectly acceptable option, but more public education as to when that option should be considered is what really is needed.

what i would really like to see are the costs of having an abortion compared to those for adoption.

Well, I didn't read the *entire* thread, so I'm positive most of my thoughts will have been given already, some by Joe for sure.

1. Abortion at point of fetal viability: "Can the fetus live outside the womb?"
In my opinion, this is an obvious "child killing" (to be Demonsthenes in this point). Abortion at this point should only be performed in the case that: The mother's life depends on the death of the fetus. This is an exceptionally rare case. The assumption here is also that the mother's life is worth more than the premature fetus' life.

2. Abortion in 3rd trimester: Very close (pretty much the same) as the fetal viability argument.

3. Abortion prior to end of 1st trimester/First Heartbeat/First Brain function: These are the three most common abortion restrictions prior to "no abortions period." Honestly, I have little problem with the early-term abortions, provided the mother cannot possibly carry the fetus full term either due to costs or loss of work etc. ruining the mother's life + health problems, incest, etc.

4. No abortion at all. I don't like this. I doubt that a 16-celled blastocyst should be considered a "life" at this point... it's just a few undifferentiated cells. IOW: Plan-B is Plan-OK IMO.. In most cases, the fetus may not have been conceived yet.

As noted earlier and in my considerations, abortion legality focuses on the point at which "life" begins and at which that "life" is considered equivalent or greater to the life of the mother.

I am personally a HUGE fan of responsibility. Wear a condom. If the condom breaks, use plan B. If you're too stupid (or, rarely, unfortunate) to do either of those, abort immediately (usually early in the pregnancy). Abortions late term are selfish and irresponsible IMO (and pretty much "murder" in my definition of "life").

PS... Governmental restriction may not be necessary. Societal restrictions and opinions are often as effective. But this gets into Libertarian ideology.

Some people definitely have a "need" for an abortion. These cases (in order of severity, again, as mentioned earlier) are, for the most part:
Mortality of the mother
Incest (severely deformed child, illegality of conception, rape etc.)
Rape (mental problems, illegality, possible problems with child, no father, etc.)
Inability for mother to care for her pregnancy/fetus/future child.
Lack of desire of mother to care for her pregnancy/fetus/future child.

Adoption is a great option. It's not as good as a stable mother and father, but many people are not fortunate enough to have those in the first place.

I dated a maternity nurse this year so my opinion is slightly slanted against abortion after he described in great and first hand detail how they aborted.


In situations where the to be mother is exceptionally young (11 - 15) then i would say yes abortion is a legitimate action, and also rape victims. but thats about it. adoption should be the way to handle it if you can't raise the child

After reading your response, I am pretty sure it is the other way around - most of my thoughts have just been given by Nathan (IMG:http://www.glowsticking.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

i think it should be all choice...i dont personaly thinks its right to have one if ur in ur 30s and were just being stupid or something like that...i just think that it sohuld be up to the mother completly (partly due to the fact that i agree with Joe about the whole life thing...its not "living" if it cant live by itself..therefor not really concidered murder)

I also dont follow any religion really...ya i guess i believe that a god created the basic life from but after that i believe in evolution 100% and since i do the whole "god intended us all to live for a reason" kind of thing doesnt really do anything for me...dont get me wrong i have nothing against people who believe that (i know someone mentioned it above cant remember who though)its jsut that I personaly dont think thats true...

Personally, I'm pro-choice.

I don't particularly like the idea of abortion. No matter how you look at it, it is essentially ending a life before it has begun. But in this lies my point -

It's stopping a life before it's begun.

I believe that an already established life (the mother's) should come before a life that hasn't actually started yet. It's her body, and the baby is essentially a parasite within her. It's the woman's choice.

People make mistakes. Or other people do terrible things - as is the case with rape. Or other times, people do use protection and try their best to prevent a pregnancy and it still happens. Pregnancy is no small trifle - it's a huge strain on the woman.

Out of all arguments against abortion, however, the one that I most openly disagree with is this one: "women will use it as a form of birthcontrol." No. You would have to be near a sociopath to use this "as just another form of birthcontrol. "Abortion is not something that leaves no emotional scars (although, I've heard, far less than giving your baby up for adoption), it's not something that most women would ever take lightly. I'm sure there are a few who would be able to abort and feel nothing, but most emotionally healthy women aren't going to feel on top of the world about having terminated their pregnancy.

They say you could put the baby up for an adoption if you really don't want to/can't care for the baby. Personally, I really do not like adoption. And I say this as someone who was adopted. It's really not the best thing - I grew up without a sense of a identity (which really sucked considering I was one of the only minorities in my all white town), and I grew up feeling like my birthparents hated me and abandoned me, no matter how many times my adopted parents tried to tell me the contrary. Hell, I still feel that way even though I've met my birthmother and she tried to tell me that wasn't the case. From a more objective standpoint, I've heard that there are more babies being put up for adoption than there are people wanting to adopt. There's an entirely new debate in the whole adoption thing, though, so I'll just leave it at this.

I cannot, however, support late-term abortions, unless of course the mother's life was in danger. If the baby can live outside of the mother, I just really don't consider it the same thing anymore.

I recently had to think about abortion. Of course, as it turns out, I wasn't pregnant (which would've sucked because I just broke up with the guy), but I've had to think about this more than I wanted to. It was very depressing.

couldnt have said it better.
if the fetus is threatening the mothers life ok then get rid of it at ANY point. Way i see it, even after it is born it still might not live. why take a healthy life for a potential healthy life?

and if its in the very early term i see no problem.
honestly im pro choice as you can tell by my post. But if i saw a girl getting an abortion just cause she doesnt want the baby during the 3rd trimester...id want to like give her shit and make her feel missearble, like wtf you couldnt do that way earlier? at this point the baby will actually feel the abortion and being killed.

and also, in a comedic way. this is also one of the reason im pro choice.
george carlin on abortion.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/80fc8238c...assicstandupfan

i mean it may be in a comedic way but he has VERY good points.

I'm incredibly pro-choice...

in the cases of a mother's life being in danger, having been raped, incest, not having the resources to remain healthy during pregnancy (such as rehab for substance-abusing soon-to-be mothers, rehab for eating disordered soon-to-be mothers, money to afford maintaining health during pregnancy), being entirely too young to have a child (under 18), being under 25 (many people are fairly adjusted by that point in their personalities and in their living situations), genetic testing showing some severely limiting defect in the unborn child, homeless people, people with severe mental illness and inability to care for their child and maybe some other cases. Granted, some of these would hopefully be performed earlier than others and the earlier, the better.

There are some scenarios that I just don't get, such as a healthy well-adjusted person having a late-stage abortion. However, I do know that most places that perform abortions, especially here in the South, have mental health screenings and you have to meet with the clinic or doctor several times to be certain that you want the procedure done and that most of our doctors will do almost anything to push you towards adoption despite the fact that more than likely, the kid will end up in foster care before it gets adopted.